We delve into the life and legacy of Magazine and Siouxsie & the Banshees guitarist John McGeogh with Rory Sullivan-Burke. Rory shares John’s story which shaped ‘The Light Pours Out Of Me – The Authorised Biography of John McGeoch’ and the Kickstarter campaign for its feature documentary.
What inspired you to write the biography of John McGeoch, and how did the idea for the documentary come about?
The honest answer to the first part of this question is pretty simple, I wanted to read a book about John and finding there wasn’t one I decided to do it myself. It seems bizarre now really, I’d always enjoyed writing and certainly liked the idea of being a published author – but I didn’t really have a clue how to go about it. I spend a lot of time living in my head and have had various ideas over the years that I thought would be amazing, but I’d never seen anything through or got the necessary brakes to make it happen. What I find hard to believe now, looking back, is just how easy it was and how quickly it all happened. Without doubt I think the book owes an awful lot to lockdown. People were available, tours weren’t happening and the world was basically in state of fucking disarray. Artists jumped on board with it from the very start, but I owe a massive debt to John’s daughter who was the first person I approached. I went to Emily to ask for permission to put the book together and once she gave me the green light, which was straight away, I set to work. I didn’t have a scooby. I just contacted people via social media, management and record companies.
The response was overwhelming, and the book quickly took on a life of its own. I was usually doing several telephone interviews each week and I’d spend a good four to five hours at the laptop every night after work. I can understand it all now, from my perspective anyway, I was using the experience as an escape from the horrors of working on front line care at such a fucked-up time. I don’t know how I would have coped without having the release and relief that writing the book gave me. This is all a bit longwinded, but above and beyond and to try and be a bit more succinct – John McGeoch is my favourite guitarist of the post-punk era bar none and in my top three list of players of all time.
The documentary was an unexpected bonus really. I was informed by my publisher that an approach had been made to secure the rights to the book and this must be around a year agon now. I was buzzing as you can imagine. The response to the book had been so positive and what had really moved me was the amount of emails and social media messages I’d received, mainly from men, who said how John’s story had deeply affected them and made them face up to their own addiction issues and relationships. That was really something and I am so incredibly grateful that people would actually take the time to contact me and tell me about their lives. So, once the rights had been secured I got to meet with the two co-directors and driving force behind the idea – Nicola Black and Paul Sng. I have been made associate producer and it is fantastic to be brought into the fold and have the chance to work with such talented and dedicated people. Paul will probably be a familiar name to a lot of your readers as he put together the great film ‘Poly Styrene: I am a cliché’, which I really enjoyed. He was the very person I would have chosen to take John’s book on and translate it to the screen. Believe me when I say, John’s legacy is in safe hands with both Nicola and Paul. Two lovely, creative people who most importantly have a social conscience. The story is a sensitive one, it needs to be done right.
The documentary explores the theme of masculinity and gender stereotypes in the 1980s. How does John McGeoch’s decision to give up music to care for his daughter contribute to this exploration?
This is such an important question and one that would probably take wiser heads than mine to try and unpack. The brutality and coldness of society never really subsides, it just moves into different areas over time and then repeats. Now, we are at a point where men can express themselves and start to acknowledge that they have emotions. We still have a way to go and I believe this is acutely true within the working class backgrounds which I grew up in. John was a pretty complete individual, especially considering the times. He was a man’s man in a lot of respects. Loved a drink, had an eye for the women, could have a tear up but was also deeply sensitive, well read and perceptive. I think this all feeds into what makes this a different story. John was unique and that became more and more apparent the more I got into his life and what made him tick. I really don’t think John gave a toss about stereotypes, he danced to the beat of a different drum. John becoming a stay at home dad was enforced really, but in so many ways was the best thing for him at that point in his life. He absolutely doted on Emily and being such a giving and thoughtful soul, he excelled as a parent. John gave me pause for thought, how am I as a parent? Am I doing enough? Do I listen to my children enough? The answer was no and I had to deal with that. It was never something I expected to be challenged with at the start of all this, but John’s relationship with his daughter is central to ‘The Light Pours Out of Me’ and this will be very much the case with the film.
Your book mentions John’s influence on music since the late ’70s. Can you elaborate on his unique playing style and its impact on the music scene during that time?
I mean, it was just an exciting time both culturally and musically, I think. Put it all against the backdrop of what was happening domestically with the economy and political landscape. Punk was an absolute necessity. A reaction in a lot of ways. Musicality had never been the calling card but I think the raw energy and sudden change in direction that punk offered allowed a whole new musical expression to develop with what came directly after. The crossover was probably pretty seamless really, Howard Devoto had been in Buzzcocks but it was really within Magazine that he flowered and ultimately faltered. John was in good company at that time, I think. Musicians and especially guitarists were experimenting with sounds, strange chords, techniques and gadgets. There was an openness to it all, a freedom and for people like John an opportunity to show just what they were truly capable of. John had been formally taught how to play and not just the guitar but also the piano, as a child. Punk would have been too restrictive for somebody like that. McGeoch just went off in a direction that you could say was all his own. I’m not saying he didn’t have his own set of influences, but I actually think it is pretty hard to nail them down just by listening to him. He was clearly brimming with a lot of creative energy, right from the start. He also had the musical ability to translate all of that into really powerful and memorable music.
What I especially like about McGeoch, and this is true perhaps more of the front person of a group rather than a member of the band, is that John changed it all up from band to band, sometimes album to album. He was a different player in the Banshees to what he had been in Magazine, he mentioned as much himself I think with regards to how he picked the strings. That development continued and John McGeoch in the Armoury Show and later in PiL represented a different approach. I love that. Not being afraid to step away from what you have been, not wanting to keep repeating the same sound over and over. I also think this shows you just how sensitive John was to the people he was working with at any given time. John was somebody who was all about serving the song, the group and working within what works best. It wasn’t really about stealing the limelight or being over bearing in any way. That’s got to be pretty unique, especially for a lead guitarist. I just imagine that at that time, for both his contemporaries and fans alike, McGeoch would be someone that you’d look to and be inspired by. Those who know hold him in such high regard.
Your biography also mentions John’s involvement with Magazine, Siouxsie & the Banshees, and PIL. How did these experiences shape his career, and were there common threads or challenges he faced across these different musical projects?
I think in each of those groups, John was the right man at exactly the right time. Magazine struggled to get their due at the time, perhaps, but without McGeoch I think they’d probably be long forgotten. They were amazing and contained so much talent, from the song writing to the compositions but ultimately John was the driving force musically – certainly at the start. I think there were struggles within the band to be heard as they moved through their career and perhaps it is only now, in hindsight, that we can really appreciate how well they all worked. I think John wanted the move away though and not just for new musical experiences, I think the relationships were also a bit fraught. John and Howard for example, two competing forces who whilst not actively disliking each other, were hardly best mates. John was determined to see how far he could go in his career, he wanted to be pushed but he also wanted to see that the effort was leading to something. Magazine had probably gone as far as they could by that point, they’d reached their ceiling. The Banshees were at a crossroads, having lost their guitarist and drummer. Would they fold or would they come back better than ever and with something to prove?
Fortunately, it was the latter. John and Budgie were the missing pieces really and when they joined and started laying down tracks for what would be their third album, ‘Kaleidoscope’, the sky was the limit. Siouxsie and Severin knew what they had in McGeoch. It must have been like hitting the jackpot. Here was somebody so accomplished, so driven but also likeable and easy to work with. As a personality as much as a musician, John fit the bill. The Banshees were at their peak during his time with the band and it is crazy to think that we are only talking about two years. ‘Juju’ is one of the finest records ever made, post-punk or otherwise. It is the perfect mix of otherness and pop sensibilities. The songs are dark, peculiar and haunting but also really catchy. Ultimately though it couldn’t last and it fell apart terribly, especially for John. His removal from the band is one of the saddest parts of his story and something which I still don’t quite understand. As for PiL, John had always been a fan and especially of Lydon. I think that relationship was far from plain sailing though and as much as McGeoch wanted to be a part of it, I think he was pretty pissed off by the dynamics. John wasn’t the sort to sit back and say nothing if he wasn’t happy. The biggest problem though is that by that point the world wasn’t really about what PiL were offering. Not that they couldn’t do big gigs or knock out some great tracks, but things were changing and it had probably started go a bit stale. I’m sure there are many who would disagree, so this is just my opinion but by the end I think it had reached its conclusion. The fallout wasn’t great though and it really represented the end of John’s career.
The book talks about John McGeoch’s complex relationships with bandmates and the challenges he faced in various groups. How did these dynamics influence his musical journey, and how did he navigate through them?
I think by the end of his career John was done with the nonsense that often goes hand in hand with being in groups with big characters. John was a fiery personality himself, so he would challenge and push buttons. He didn’t take any shit and I think this actually endeared him to the likes of Siouxsie, certainly initially. It is fair to say though, that, whether it was in Magazine, the Banshees, PiL or the Armoury Show for that matter, personality clashes were an issue. He left Magazine, he was sacked by the Banshees, he left the Armoury Show and was left out to dry when PiL couldn’t secure a new deal. His career followed a bit of a pattern, I guess, but whatever that means the one thing we do have is some bloody great music. His light shone bright but on reflection it wasn’t a particularly long career, but my God he left his mark.
The documentary aims to give context to issues of mental health and addiction that were not widely discussed during John’s fame. How did you approach these sensitive topics in your book, and what do you hope the audience takes away from it?
As I was writing the book and the further into John’s story I got, I really began separating the man from the music. By the end it was almost as if the music was unimportant really. That sounds like a stupid thing to say, but John was such a different guy. He ticked so many boxes and he had his share of faults, but he really was an extremely interesting and complex individual. So, when you’re looking at all that and you throw addiction and emotional vulnerabilities into the mix, you just see a human soul who needed help. Needed to find a different way of doing things, a different direction in life. I don’t think the lifestyle of heavy touring suited McGeoch at all. I think it was hugely detrimental to his health both physical and mental. He’d given so much to whatever it was that he was involved with, that by the time he was out of it the damage had probably already been done. That’s trauma, that goes a bit beyond sacrifice. I was very mindful of all these things and I started to hate what the industry or rather ‘machine’ represents. What it takes to reach the top and stay there. There are so many casualties and for what is ultimately a form of entertainment. As important as it is and as much as we adore music, it should never be life or death. You know, what I can honestly say is that I genuinely like the man that John McGeoch was. I just feel so sorry for his family that he is no longer here and that they lost him when they did.
The Kickstarter campaign mentions the film being made with the full support of John’s family. How did their involvement shape the narrative of both the book and the upcoming documentary?
Where do I start with that? Without Emily, the book would never have happened. I was just some random guy who approached her via social media and asked if she’d be OK with me writing a book about her dad. She has never been anything less than amazing throughout the whole thing and I’m just so pleased that her dad is getting the sort of recognition that he has been long overdue. Hearing his mother, Annie, talking about his childhood was really moving. That’s her boy and she saw him take on the world and achieve so much. They should absolutely feel so proud of what he did with his life and that his music still resonates with so many people to this day. That’s a legacy. Emily will be a huge part of the documentary and having heard her stories and put them within the pages of the book, that’s absolutely right. Their relationship was so special and loving. I actually think it is the moist significant part of the whole story. I want as wide an audience as possible to hear about it, because that’s real life. The relationships we make, surely that’s what it is all about and if we are talking about legacy then what is a greater one than that?
Can you share some insights into John’s life away from the music scene, especially his role as a father and his decision to work in the care sector?
Again, this was such a moving part of the story. I mean, to go from the world of festivals and arenas to care work. It’s not common and certainly not when you’ve had the sort of career that John had. John had actually done work as a youngster, prior to going to study in Manchester, in a psychiatric hospital. I think that experience had a profound effect on him. He was a caring, considerate and compassionate man. He loved deeply and it was very natural for him to help those in need. Perhaps it is because he had also suffered during his time climbing the pop charts and recording masterpieces that he could empathise with the vulnerable. I’m projecting somehwhat here, but look him going on to work as a carer like that resonated deeply with me. I’ve worked in care since I was sixteen and whilst I know fuck all about what it takes to write a timeless piece of music or tour the world, I can relate to wanting to put your life to use for others less fortunate or more in need than yourself. I really respect that about John, fair play to the guy and by all accounts he was excellent at it. As far as fatherhood goes, I just think he was so overjoyed to become a dad. It probably put a lot of things into perspective for him and gave him something that no amount of personal accolades or appearances on TV could. He put a lot of time and consideration into being the best father he could and one story that particularly stands out to me is when Emily started her periods. John sent her a card in the post, recognising it as a significant moment in her life. He got a shoebox prepared full of items she would need when she came down to stay with him. I don’t think there are too many dad’s that would be that aware or involved.
Your book highlights John’s influence on rock music. How did other musicians, such as Johnny Marr, Siouxsie Sioux, or Peter Hook, perceive and describe his impact?
Massive. Especially for the likes of Johnny Marr, John Frusciante and Mark Arm of the group Mudhoney. They recognised that what John was doing was special, it was original and it was pushing the boundaries of what the guitar could do. I think they are also really drawn to the way John’s approach developed and remained just as interesting from group to group, especially in the Banshees. Siouxsie readily acknowledges that John was easily the best guitarist the Banshees ever had and beyond doubt the most creative. She also said that of all the people she’d worked with in the band, John is the one guy she would have liked to work with again. The guitarists loved the arpeggios and way that he could make the guitar sound like it wasn’t a guitar, strange as that may sound. I get it though, and again this just highlights what a creative player he was.
How did you strike a balance between portraying John’s strengths and weaknesses, and what do you hope readers and viewers take away from this nuanced depiction?
I just think that it was all a part of him. It was what made him the man he was. Let’s have it right, we all have our weaknesses. It is what makes us human and ultimately hearing about that in someone else, no matter how brilliant, just makes them all the more real. I just wanted readers of the book to feel the raw emotion of what John went through in his life. There are some crushing lows in there, some stuff that is hard to process but why shy away from that? For all of that the book is also about hope and knowing that even if we can’t be sure of the results, it is never too late to make a change for the better and try and lead a happier and healthier life regardless of how long any one of us has. I’m sure it will be the same with the film and I can only image that the impact of that will be even stronger.
The documentary campaign also mentions addressing universal questions about what an artist is willing to sacrifice on the path to recognition. How does John McGeoch’s story shed light on these questions?
I think John gave an awful lot of himself to achieve what he did. Was it worth it? For us as fans then the answer is a resounding yes. Put in the context of the individual and how their life ended, it is hard to make a positive case. As I said earlier, writing the book really opened my eyes to what being in a successful group and trying to maintain that appeal takes. It was pretty off putting and a common tale unfolded of stress, addiction and excess. No matter how talented you are, to get that exposure and to scale the heights you really are just a commodity. A wheel in the cog designed to make a select few extremely wealthy but as for the artist, more often than not they get screwed. So, the documentary will definitely delve into this side of it and portray a sympathetic picture of losing yourself in something which is bigger and more powerful. I very much doubt much has changed since John’s time but perhaps we are more aware of the issues and signs that all might not be well. I suppose it is natural for creative people to be vulnerable and maybe more likely to suffer with self-doubt, depression and unhealthy ways of managing that such as self-medicating behaviours like alcohol and drugs. I think John’s story is a warning, all that glitters and that but above and beyond the sadness it is John’s heart and kindness that shine brightest.
How can people contribute to the Kickstarter and are there any interesting things people can get for pledging?
The Kickstarter can be accessed at tinyurl.com/johnmcgeochfilm. We need to raise 40k and at present, almost two weeks in, we are just about at £13,000. Any donations are so important, whatever you can spare really. This will be an incredible film and as I say the people behind it are second to none. There are different pledge packages available and you can own items such as t-shirts that belonged to and were worn by John during his career. There are also plectrums, badges and tote bags which are unique to the project. I think there is something for everyone. Check it out and please get involved if you can.
Further information
John McGeoch: The Light Pours Out Of Me: Feature documentary celebrating the life and musical legacy of a legendary Scottish guitarist who defined the post-punk sound
The Light Pours Out of Me: The Authorised Biography of John McGeoch
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