Joss Cope’s musical journey dates back to the Liverpool post punk scene and early Creation Records. Jason Barnard talks to Joss about his excellent new album Indefinite Particles which sees him bringing his insightful lyrics and knack for melody to his second solo LP.
When did you write the Indefinite Particles?
Some of the riffs and lyrics have been in my head for years, but this batch have all became songs in the last 3 years, except MKL which is maybe 5 years older. It, Healed, Hill, True Nature and Indefinite Particles were the first batch we recorded early 2018 in Helsinki. Change Your World was written when my partner was pregnant with our first child in Spring 2018. Lifeboat Service, Who are you trying to kid and Hit the Wall came along a bit after that. I was quite upset by the deaths of Scott Walker and Pete Shelley earlier this year, two of my all-time favourite songwriters, and Hit the Wall was my impression of a Buzzcocks anti-Brexit song. Then Radium Came sort of came out of nowhere and forced itself onto the album quite late.
Tracks like ‘Who Are You Trying To Kid?’ work on a personal and political level. How does the social and political climate influence your lyrics?
It’s always been important, I was an anti-Thatcherite punk in my teens and haven’t seen much since to persuade me otherwise. I’ve never believed that we lived in a true democracy, but they used to make more effort on the pretence that we do. Now they’ve realised that minority populism can deliver control without having to pay much lip service to any kind of serious democracy at all, so the veil has dropped. I’m pretty much with Chomsky on most of this stuff, but I try to let it into my work osmotically, rather than prescriptively, at least that’s the intention.
Thatcher famously said “there is no such thing as society” which has framed much of the political dialogue for the last 40 years. My position is the diametric opposite, I believe that there’s no such thing as the individual, there is only society.
I’m most interested in politics as the wider stories we tell ourselves as a society rather than the day to day knockabout sideshow of Westminster. Now they are written I see a lot about Brexit, climate change and the rush to authoritarianism in these songs, but hopefully they’re not lectures. I’m just pointing out the ironies and inconsistencies, sometimes playfully, sometimes not.
I’m glad you think ‘Who Are You Trying To Kid?’ works on both levels, it’s definitely what I was aiming for. When I played it at a gig recently I introduced it as “a song for narcissists in general, and one in particular.’
What do you think are the key tracks from Indefinite Particles?
Indefinite Particles itself is really the key track because it sets fractal parameters for the album, because I wanted it to be about scale and perspective – the front cover is just a row of random black dots close up, but from further away you can see two people hugging. So the other songs on the album try to see things from different perspectives – From a Great Height, Healed and Lifeboat Service would be examples.
Lifeboat Service is personally important to me because it was written while I was caring for my father just before his death. Radium Came and Trying to Kid are my current favourites – mainly because I am in awe of the piano, moog and harpsichord parts added by my good friend Duncan Maitland.
Did you sequence the songs in a particular way?
Not in any deeply thought out way. I knew it had to start with Particles and end on Hill. Hill is an exhortation to trust yourself and follow your bliss, don’t put your ladder up against the wrong tree because no matter how high you climb it will never satisfy you. Then I tried to make the track listing dynamic and keep it interesting to me at least, and that was the result.
I understand you recorded the album live. Did you have a clear idea of what sound you were aiming for before going into the studio?
All the backing tracks were recorded in the live room of Raarjuusvarjostin studio in Helsinki, two guitars, bass, drums and guide vocals. So at the heart of the album there’s the natural timing of the band, no dictatorship of the click track to interfere with the vibe. That was what was most important to me because I needed that liveness underpinning everything that got laid on top. I also wanted arrangements that a 5 piece band could play live once keys are added, and we mostly managed to stay true to that.
All the keys and vocals were added later. Some of the vocals I got to do at Abbey Road through a Neuman U47 mic, which made me pretty happy.
Who did you work with to record the album? Have you worked with them before?
This is the second album I’ve recorded with three Helsinki musicians; drummer Ville Raasakka, bassist Esa Lehporturo and Puka Oinonen on guitar. They’ve been brilliant, and each has made major contributions to the sound and the arrangements of the songs. Once we’d played together a couple of times I gained so much confidence because, no matter what kind of strangeness I threw at them, they handled it beautifully, and always entered into the spirit of what I was trying to do. That’s what I really wanted as the basis for the album, the enthusiasm you get when you’re all working together to make a song come alive – and that’s what they’ve given me. I can’t thank them enough.
People label you with various artist tags, but who are your formative influences?
I was 14 when punk happened, which was the perfect age, and immediately gravitated to the Clash, Buzzcocks and later Joy Division. I was already listening to krautrock like Can and Faust thanks to my elder brother. Then there were Ramones, Suicide and Television from New York, who all blew me away in their various different ways. And Bowie was certainly there in the mix of course.
How do you think your sound has developed over the years?
Probably very little in terms of my own material! I’ve never been able to write songs in any style to keep up with changing fashions, I think it’s more important to just be yourself and do what you do. One thing I decided to do with these songs is to be myself and please myself. Back in the day I never liked my voice, always wished I sounded more rock n roll and less like a choirboy, but now I’m at peace with it. It’s always better to be yourself than to imitate.
There are very few genuinely new ideas. Most things hyped as new are actually old ideas repackaged and recycled for a new generation to hear or experience for the first time. Music is like science, an ever-expanding sphere that millions of people contribute to. I’m just happy to make my contribution without feeling the need to constantly break new ground for it’s own sake. Maybe the world needs Joy Division songs reinvented as latin american salsa instrumentals, say, but just because something is technically ‘new’ doesn’t necessarily make it interesting or relevant, at least to me.
I gave up on constantly trying to reinvent myself years ago. The punk ethic demanded relentless change and re-examination, but at some point it became change for changes sake, at which point I lost interest. Making music to me is a bit like archaeology, you scrabble in the sand, unearth something, and try to figure out if it is significant, and where (or if) it fits with the pieces you already have. I’ve found a core sound which works for me and I will continue to mine it until it runs dry or starts to bore me.
Can you tell me about your band Freight Train who released the well regarded ‘Man’s Laughter’?
Freight Train originally was Donald Skinner and Barry Douce, I joined later when I came back to Tamworth after college. Donald was a teen musical prodigy, a sort of cross between Matt Johnson and Vini Reilly. He borrowed a portastudio off Julian and he and Barry did some amazing demos, really strange psychedelic grooves which just came naturally to him. Barry played bass and scowled, both to a high degree.
Julian’s manager Calls Calomon was impressed and let us record for his Bam Caruso label. We did one single together and a tour supporting The Woodentops. Dave Balfe wanted to sign us to his newly formed Food records, but he was such a twat we had to say no. Then Julian offered Donald a spot as his guitarist, and the rest as they say is history.
Although Donald went on to do some great work on Julian’s songs, Freight Train foundered and the groundbreaking album that should have been made never was. St Julian got made instead. Common enough rock n roll story I suppose.
What are your highlights from all the musical projects you have worked on?
From Creation days touring supporting Primal Scream was pretty special. More recently, in 2017, I was invited to sing at a charity gig in Los Angeles where the whole of Buffalo Springfield were performed. Buffs lead singer Ritchie Furay sang a bunch of songs, Mickey Dolenz sang one, and I got to sing part of Broken Arrow with Don Randi playing organ (he’s the Wrecking Crew pianist who played on the album). Half the backing musicians were Wondermints, Brian Wilson’s backing band. So much talent, so little ego, the whole experience was amazing. In terms of my own music, these last two albums are the closest I’ve come yet to making the music I hear in my head.
How did you link up with the Gare du Nord label?
I’ve played bass for a few years with Sgt Buzfuz (Blang Records), whose drummer is GdN supremo and around musical genius Ian Button. So when I recorded my first album Ian offered to release it and I felt very comfortable with the label. Musically it’s nothing like Creation was back in the day, but it had the same homely feel, with musicians helping each other out and pushing your creativity. Still very happy with the decision.
What other projects are you currently working on?
Still working with Buzfuz. There is a new album Foxpop out later this year on Blang.
Also been working with Ian Button and the surrealist poet Napoleonic Camassa as Föhn, where the 3 of us improvise backing tracks to Napo’s poetry. This is way out of my usual territory because, although improv and jamming are an essential part of song development, I’m very conscious of how easily it becomes self-indulgent so tend to steer away from too much of it. Ian persuaded me to suspend my disbelief in this instance and I’m very pleased he did. The Föhn album Ballpark Music came out last July – it has elements of krautrock, electronica, 60’s psyche, Beefheart and Brian Wilson. It’s proper outsider artWhat I love about it is that even though I’ve contributed a lot of my ideas, they have been shaped and reworked in ways which I wouldn’t naturally do myself,. It’s more atonal, random and rougher than my solo work, but very engaging. It’s proper outsider art, and we are currently working on a second album.
Also I have reconnected with and old friend from Creation days, Rose MacDowall (Strawberry Switchblade/Current 93) and will be playing gigs with her as and when they come up.
Finally there’s an ad-hoc Krautrock band featuring among others my old bandmate Dave Morgan (ATV, Vic Goddard) and Jowe Head (Swell Maps). We get together every so often for a blast at the Krautrock Karaoke sessions run by the amazing Kenichi Iwasa at Islington’s Cafe Otto among other places. Always lots of good musicians attending, always good fun.
Have you got the tracks written and planned already for your next album?
Well it has ten provisional tracks already written, and I’m still debating the title. But like the previous albums, the tracks currently listed won’t all make it, I’m writing new tracks fairly regularly and they’re competing to force their way on to the album. I hope that a track called Trip to Fall will finally make it on to this one, it’s a hangover from the first album that I wasn’t able to record to my satisfaction, but we’ll have to wait and see.
What are your plans for the next year?
Well I will definitely be working on my next solo album, and probably releasing a new Fohn album. I’ll be playing gigs with my band, and hopefully also with Sgt Buzfuz and Rose McDowall. I would love to do some more work with Duncan Maitland as well if we can wangle it, he is an amazing talent and lovely guy. And after becoming a father for the first time last year, a fair bit of time looking after my young son Timo.
Indefinite Particles by Joss Cope is available from Bandcamp.
See also Joss Cope’s Facebook page.
