Al Kooper (credit - Joe Mabel)
Al Kooper has been selected for a “musical excellence award” at the 2023 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Highlights include his work with Blood, Sweat & Tears, playing organ on Bob Dylan’s ‘Like a Rolling Stone’ and collaborating with countless artists. In this interview extract which is published for the first time, Canadian writer Mark Campbell talks to Al about his experiences with Dylan.
You wound up in the studio with Bob Dylan.
Yes, I did. This was because of my friendship with the guy that produced him.
Tom Wilson.
Yes. We became very good friends. And one of the places that I would go because you could see so many A&R guys was Columbia Records. Because they had a floor and all the producers were on that floor. And so that was something. And that’s pretty much how Dylan got discovered. And John Hammond Sr. discovered him, but he also discovered an incredible amount of people. Jazz people, as well as, rock and roll people.
And so, he’s probably the most erudite producer I’ve ever met. And our offices, when I went to work at Columbia, our offices were right next door to each other, so we spent a lot of time together. And he was an incredible person. So that didn’t hurt me either.
So how did it come about? Would he just invite you to sessions like this that he was doing, and it just so happened that he was Dylan’s session, said, “Hey, come on in?”
Of course, not. [laughter] Well, [pause] so I started spending a lot of time at Tom Wilson’s office, and I played him some folk songs I had written. And so he went in and did a demo of me, playing and singing the folk songs that I wrote.
And what was his opinion of them? Do you recall what [laughter] his opinion was of your folk songs?
Fortunately, no.
[laughter]
But hanging out in his office was very helpful to me, in that I could take some Dylan demos and abscond with them overnight and then, put them back the next day which I never got caught doing, luckily. So one day, Tom Wilson invited me to a Bob Dylan recording session. He said, “But you just have to sit in the booth. [pause] You can’t do anything.” I said, “That would be great.”
But you weren’t about to do that, right? You really wanted to get down there where the action was.
Yeah. Well, as I said, at the time I was mostly a guitar player. So I brought my electric guitar to the studio, and I was going to say to Tom Wilson, “Oh, I thought you invited me to play.” Like that. This is a 21-year-old at this point. So it started out, I was in the booth. I got the—the session was called for one o’clock, and I got there at noon. And I took out my guitar, plugged it in, and I was just going to say to Tom Wilson, “Oh, I thought he wanted me to play on it. I misunderstood you.” [laughter] But Tom Wilson had not got there yet. So about 10 minutes after I plugged the guitar in, in comes Dylan with another guy with similar hair. [laughter]
And the other guy is carrying a Stratocaster and it was in February, and he had no case for it, and it was snowing out. So there was snow on the guitar. So he came in and he said, “Is that your towel over there?” I said, “No.” He said, “Good.” And he took it and wiped off the guitar, and sat down and plugged in. And as far as he knew, I was on the session as well. And he started playing, and I went, “Oh my god. I can’t possibly pull this off.”
And that was your first encounter with Mike Bloomfield.
Yeah. So I packed up my guitar, left it in the studio, and went in the control room where I belonged. And about—now, the other musicians were all studio musicians. So Dylan and Bloomfield were the only people that were in my age range, really. Everybody else were old guys that played sessions all the time. So about halfway through the session, they moved the organ player over to piano. And I thought, “Hum. How can I get out there?” And, also, it was very important that he left the organ turned on [laughter] because it’s very difficult to start a Hammond organ. It’s a three-move situation, and I don’t know how to do it which I did not know. Although I had played organ before on sessions, but I didn’t know how to turn it on.
Do you know now?
Yeah. [laughter] Very well. So they took a break, and I walked out into the studio. And I looked at the organ, and I hit a note on it. And it was still plugged in and turned on. So I said, “This is good.” So I sat down at the organ, and I said, “What’s going on? I don’t even know if he can see me from here.” But a guy comes in and says, “It’s actually on the album, this lick.” And he says, “All right. This is song number blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And hey, what are you doing out there?”
And all the other musicians start laughing because they kind of know me. Then Tom Wilson starts laughing, and he decides to let it go. So there I am at the organ, and I go, “Okay. Take one. What’s the name of this? “Like a Rolling Stone.” And so, three incomplete takes go by, and then they get one that we, actually, played all the way through. And it’s, like, six minutes long or something.
And you had never heard this song before you sat down—
No, fortunately there’s only four or five chords in it. And my ears are very good. So I can pick up something if I can hear it, and so that’s what I did, and I had already heard three incomplete takes in the booth. So the actual change in my life is that they moved the organ player to piano.
So at the end of the take they, Bob and Bloomfield, go into the control room to listen to it back. And Tom Wilson says, “If anybody wants to come listen, they’re going to play that back.” So I said, “Okay. I’m anyone.” So I go in the booth and I sit down, and they start playing it back. And after the second verse, Dylan leans over to Tom Wilson—and this is all where I could touch any of these people. Very small circle. And Dylan says, “Can you turn the organ up?” And Tom Wilson laughed and he says, “That guy’s not an organ player.” He said, “I don’t care, could you make the organ louder?” And so, he says, “Yeah.” And he turned up the organ, and that was the moment where I became an organ player.
It’s funny how many people, in the wake of you doing “Like a Rolling Stone,” sampled or copied your sound. The multi-vibrato variants.
That was incredibly humorous to me because it was based on ignorance.
[laughter] But it’s such a unique sound. I think, maybe, anyone else could never have gotten that. I think that in some ways, not really knowing something probably played to your benefit. You are a bit freer to explore a particular sound without being locked into what it should be.
Well, I mean, in retrospect—recently I got a copy of the multitrack of it. And I put it on the computer so that I could raise Bloomfield up and raise the organ up and stuff like that. I also have a recording of Tom Wilson saying, “Hey, what are you doing out there?” [laughter] And everybody is laughing. [laughter] So, I mean, to have that forever is a wonderful thing.
Further information
Full interview with Al Kooper on The Strange Brew
Mark Campbell is an independent writer and entertainment editor. This interview was undertaken for an unreleased podcast called “Words & Music By…” which was also co-hosted and co-produced by Michael Maupin, former magazine editor and screenwriter, currently working on a TV serial drama about record producer Guy Stevens and writing posts to Substack. With thanks to Mike for his additional assistance; editing by Jason Barnard.
Copyright © Mark Campbell and Michael Maupin, 2023. All Rights Reserved. No part of this article may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, without prior permission from the author.
